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Abortion, Cloning and Prosperity

Posted By: Randy GageApril 8, 2010

So we’ve been looking at what it takes to have a congruent philosophy for prosperity.  And the last few days there’s been some spirited debate because I said that if your philosophy were congruent, you would support the legalization of drugs and sex workers.  

The reason being of course, if you try to legislate your morals, beliefs or feelings on other people, you are restricting their right to seek happiness.  Most of you understand the logic, although a few readers couldn’t seem to overcome their personal feelings and think logically.

Jim raised a few questions.  He asked, “Is it victimless? If someone spends the family’s money on prostitutes or traumatizes you breaking into your house, isn’t there a victim?  Most drug addicts don’t have the cash to buy drugs.”

I’ll address these, because a few of you shared similar thoughts and I think that’s missing the issue.

For some reason, you guys seem to think I want to abolish all laws, police and courts.  I don’t.  You need police and a court system to adjudicate disputes and protect everyone’s rights and private property.

If you break into someone’s home to buy your drugs, you’re trampling on the private rights of others.  Likewise if you kidnap someone and sold them into the sex trade.   Yes someone could take the family’s money and spend it on drugs.  Or alcohol.  Or the racetrack.  Or a new boat.  That’s an issue that the family needs to deal with, not the government.

I wear a seatbelt when I drive and a helmet when I ride motorcycles because that’s the smart thing to do.  But I don’t want the government telling me I have to.  It’s not their business.

Every morning when I brush my teeth and get ready, I have to bend way over to the counter because I’m tall.  But when I told my contractor that I wanted a higher counter he told me he couldn’t do it because it was against the county code, because the counter has to be accessible for wheelchairs.   Just like when I remodeled my kitchen, I had to put electrical outlets every three feet, because the code has determined that most kitchen appliances have short cords.

It’s my condo, I live there, I don’t need a wheelchair and I don’t have a bunch of appliances.  But the nanny state tells me how I have to build my private property.  How crazy is that?

Now just to really keep things interesting, Jim also asked about abortion.  He said, “In a free society is it a woman’s right to chose or is she killing the infant inside her who has no rights?”

I must admit this is somewhat of a quandary for me.  Personally I am against abortion.  But I do support the right of a woman to do one.  From a prosperity standpoint what we look at is people’s right to do things as long as they don’t impinge on the rights of others.  So obviously abortion goes both ways.

But I can’t in my mind justify making a woman carry a fetus in her body for nine months if she does not want to do this.  I can’t think of anything that would be more intrusive and restrict rights more.  I know there are people that make the argument that as soon as the sperm fertilizes the egg it is a person, but I don’t buy that.  Now that’s just my opinion, after doing critical thinking about it.  I can respect other people’s opinions and understand this is a very difficult issue to deal with.  Cloning is now a reality and we will be forced to look at the ethical and moral implications of that as well.

So what do you guys think?  Please share your thoughts below.

-RG

48 comments on “Abortion, Cloning and Prosperity”

  1. For the abortion argument I am personally against it. As soon as sperm and egg meet, it's Life, and I feel that it's taking life.

    That being said, I can't tell a woman what to do with their body, and I don't feel that the law should either. Besides, their conscience, karma, or whatever you want to call it, deals with that. If in their heart they feel it's OK to have an abortion, then their conscience will be cleared. If they feel that it's wrong, they carry it with them for the rest of their life, and I've known women who it absolutely destroyed. You can't escape your conscience. It reaches places where Jonny Law can't.

  2. It seems like everyone has the right to life... I think that it would be better to put a baby up for adoption than abort it. I know that the mothers feel better about it and it just make's more sense.

    I'm not really sure how I feel about it but i'm leaning towards the life side... I have heard it so many times but each of us was chosen out of 1 million sperm... obviously we are special and obviously we have a purpose. To take that purpose away sure couldn't be my job.

    Thanks for the post Randy...

    David

  3. Totally with you on this Randy. Every woman should have a say on her body and what she chooses to do with it. Now, there is a personal responsibility issue her, if a woman continues to have the same behavior and continues to get abortions, here does the buck stop. About legalizing drugs, I think we would stop the war on them and we would really start to educate and create new ways to see that the problem is not the drugs, rather what we do not heal of ourselves!

  4. Excellent post, Randy!

    We are still, as a society and as a planet, deep into the victim mentality and scared of the cruel world out there so we feel a need to control everything. Naturally, this comes around and bites us in the ass:)

    I think there needs to be a shift in consciousness, where people understand that they are the creators of their experience and life. Only then the need to control others will disappear.

    Someone who thinks the world is a nasty place and feels powerless will never understand the logic and common sense of a this type of view of the world, prosperity or anything else.

    Interestingly enough, I talked to a lady from Boston the other day and told her that the U.S. constitution was written to tell the government what it can't do to the people, not as a set of rules and regulations for the people to follow. It told the government that "every man was created equal", just so there wouldn't be any misunderstanding later:)

    Have a great day,

    Josip

  5. "Most of you understand the logic, although a few readers couldn’t seem to overcome their personal feelings and think logically". Ok Randy, I have to call you on this statement. Your blog is all about critical thinking and sometimes spirited debate. I love reading your stuff and agree with most of your philosophy. This statement though makes the assumption that if we don't agree with you we aren't thinking logically.
    You bring up some great subjects that obviously don't have a black and white standard answer.
    RJ

  6. As long as you're not hurting someone else go ahead and create the life you want. If that includes drug use, having an abortion or prostitution then go right ahead. The fact that I am not a drug user, I am against abortion and don't feel the need to prostitute myself has no bearing on how you choose to live your life.

    Carol

  7. Randy,

    Great post. I agree with what you said, and I understand that many people have problems accepting "contraty" ideas to be implemented.

    Somehow, I think every one of us has a "mind police virus" inside, that we must work in order to overrule it, and let people make their own choices, not judging them from our point of view.

    Keep these great thoughts flowing.

    Greetings from Chile!
    Gus

  8. After many years; I'm 67 now; I have to agree with Randy on all points. For Christians it takes no more than actually reading what Jesus taught..thoroughly and coming to an understanding. At no time did he say to go forth and play God in the lives of others to the extent of pushing for local and national laws to be changed that would force others to live according to my personal religious based beliefs. In fact, he did say when in any place to respect their laws.

    He said to teach others what he taught. And if one did this in the same manner he did, it sets an example, plus he only spoke to and with those who were willing to hear what he had to say.

    Our law books today are crammed full of laws demanded by enough groups of people to pass into law...that have nothing to do with preserving personal liberties. Even the non religious based ones are mostly to force others to live under some people's personal beliefs.

    Like Randy also, yes, I fully appreciate that we have laws that are designed to deal with criminal acts. We need those. And the whole issue, to me...today, comes down to simply ALL THINGS IN MODERATION.

    We seem to have become a world ruled by excessive controls over every aspect of other people's lifestyles, choices and even what others should be taught to think. The Texas textbook changes come to mind... 🙂

    It's time for change...for sure,

    Thanks again Randy for always making all of us think!

    DJ

  9. Randy, regarding abortion it all comes down to (I believe) when we as a collective society determine that actual life has taken hold. Surely, life BEGINS at the time that the egg has been fertilized. However, a good portion of society doesn't hold that the embryo is a person yet. That takes place at some ambiguous time during pregnancy. On the other end of the spectrum, if a woman wanted to have an abortion at eight months into her pregnancy...the vast majority of society would condemn that act as actual murder. Society accepts that the unborn child is a true LIFE at that time. Most likely that's the case because the unborn baby would be almost completely viable outside the womb. So, the abortion issue (in terms of the rights of the mother and the rights of the unborn child) simply come down to timing. Our beliefs determine where in that timing a life has become a life rather than just being potential life. And from whatever point we believe that to be, our beliefs on abortion can be logical and consistent.

  10. This comment articulates my position exactly. Once we collectively agree (which will probably never happen) when a fetus becomes a person with the right to life, who then will be the enforcer of that right against the woman that decides to kill that person?

    The second part of this argument should be if the federal government, as dictated by the supreme court, has the right to enforce a policy either way that it has absolutely no constitutional authority enforcing.

  11. Prosperity consciousness is about an abundant universerse that has more than enough resources. When we, meaning society focus on any kind of limiting behavior, then we have limited some of the flow of abundance.

    We need laws because we have a large number of people in this country and to believe that everyone will behave honorably and with integrity for the highest good of all is foolishness at this point in our evolution.

    In fact, we need more government right now because the insurance companies and the hedgefund brokers have shown us that they are not going to act ethically without changes and stiffer regs.

    As to a women's right to choose, this is not about the life of the unborn, although that statement is used to moblize people. It's about taking women's rights away, limiting their independence, and once again making them be the only one responsible for sexual choices. It sucks.

    If marijuana was legalized, and needles and condoms were free, it would improve things alot. But the religious right cannot seem to understand that. I am almost rabid about any kind of fundementalism as it always ends up in repression, and women are usually the most repressed by it.

    We need to legalize prostitution, give away free needles and condoms so we can reduce the spread of HIV. Until men, mostly men, I realize that there is gay prostitution, and that there are male escort services. But I think it's mostly men who patronize strip joints, massage parlors, and pick-up prostitutes, or hire call girls. I have not seen their behavior, as a group change all that much in my lifetime, so it's better to legalize it, and give the health department a better chance of regulating the risks. Besides if it's legal, women can work for themselves.

    So that's my take on it. What's really missing here, is that we don't know how to love and appreciate each other enough, so that everyone feels whole, and doesn't really need any of the above.

    In the meantime, we need laws, until the day comes where people get it about how to treat other people and how to listen.

    Thanks for the platform, I do appreciate you.

    patbutterfly

  12. Randy,

    Great, thought-provoking post as usual. First some facts - then my logic derived from the facts:

    I do a lot of safety consulting with pediatric surgical teams.
    Surgeons can do remarkable surgical procedures on unborn children in the womb - to correct birth defects and repair other physical problems. When they do these procedures they give both the mother and the fetus anesthetic because the fetus feels pain. They treat the baby as if it were another patient. In one case where the surgeon cut into the womb the unborn baby grasped his hand. I saw the picture of this.

    In many states, you can be prosecuted for two murders if you kill a pregnant woman.

    In many states you can prosecuted for damaging your baby in the womb due to your drug use or alcholism.

    You have a right to control your body until that action infringes on another's rights. (I can make my body "high" with drugs until it causes me to hurt someone else or steal their property.)

    So the key point in a logical approach to abortion is "When does the fetus become a 'person' with all the rights of a human being?"
    I do not know the answer, but science is dangerously close to being able to pinpoint it. Once we are close to knowing, let's err on the side of caution, determine a definitive cutoff point, and stop the killing of unborn, but fully vested human beings.

    Regarding your point about forcing someone to carry a baby to term that they don't want...

    You have the right to drink but if you drive drunk and kill someone you might have to spend 9 months in jail.

    You have the right to do drugs, but if ruin your life you might have to spend nine months in rehab.

    You have the right to have sex, but if you conceive and the baby reaches personhood, you might have to carry it to term.

    This, to me, seems a congruent approach to abortion.

    Thanks Randy, for motivating me to analyze my thoughts and put them into words.

    Steve

  13. I have been pondering this question for quite some time of when life really starts. It seems to me that when the egg and sperm meet, it is strictly biology. It is the miracle of source energy that begins the reaction to cell division and development that introduces what we know as 'life'. Without the energy from source, no changes occur. The unborn fetus begins development as a person in the womb, due to whatever the mother is exposed to (or subjects herself to). For a woman to choose an abortion (and it is her choice) is for her to choose what is best for herself and her unborn child, given any circumstances. I do believe that she needs to be counseled (without bias) as to the consequences of each choice, to make the best decision possible.

    I am not a supporter of abortion, but I cannot deny a woman's right to choose either, as it is not my place, or the government to impose that control over her.

    Once control issues start, lack mentality breeds. I will fight for the choice of abundancy and prosperity as free will and the right to choose is what keeps us free and moving forward as a race.

  14. "I wear a seatbelt when I drive and a helmet when I ride motorcycles because that’s the smart thing to do. But I don’t want the government telling me I have to. It’s not their business."

    Randy, I too use seatbelts and a helmet and hate the government telling me what to do, so I have to agree with you. However when those who don't take pro active steps to protect themselves get injured and paralyzed they expect society (the government) to pay their bills and take care of them for the rest of their life.....and we do.

    It seems to me that to be completely congruent that must stop. Until people realize that yes, they have the right to live life their own way, but, and it's the big but, they have to also accept responsibility for the consequences of their actions, it is kind of the governments business. Isn't it?.

  15. There is no "right" and "wrong" in this field. The whole things depends on the agreement of people (the majority) on what to do!
    But again, about the laws, I thing forcing people to have helmet makes the society safer and prevents wasting resources ... don't you think so?

  16. Forcing people to be safer is taking away their freedom to be unsafe. Government is there to protect us from others or more specifically to protect our right to freedom from others, not to protect us from ourselves.

  17. These are hard questions and I VALUE our freedom to debate them. Thank you for facilitation the discussions. I treasure the opinions expressed - and the ability to do so EVEN MORE! It makes me sad as I see more and more of our individual freedoms destroyed, that one day we might speak of the freedoms we "used to" enjoy - such as forums like this. Cheers - SoCal

  18. I'm pro abortion for the same reasons as you Randy. As for the right of the child, I think we're making the assumption that a fertilised egg has an opinion. If you believe in spirit, who knows at what point in time a spirit attaches itself to a fertilised egg. What if it's closer to the time of birth? If that's the case, then it's just a bunch of cells and we're not impinging on its rights anyway. It's quite likely that we will never know the answer to this question during our lifetimes.

  19. As I always say: morality is simple, really: humans are entitled to one thing only, and that’s the freedom to be left alone to do what they want, as long as they respect the same right in others. Anything that violates this one and only human entitlement is immoral.

    Meaning, if people want to indulge abortion, cloning, gay-couple adoption, sperm-doning, etc, that's their life. I will never support these things, as I believe them to be immoral, as they are disrespectful of the humans whose lives will ultimately be produced/destroyed/raised.

    When it comes to abortion, I haven't made up my mind if and when it is immoral or not. It IS immoral to interfere with someone's life if they choose this path - that's their business, but as I said, regarding the 'life' of the fetus, I'm not sure where to draw the line - if at all.

    But when it comes to actual, living, breathing lives, I'm convinced that the conception, birth, and life of a human is not a decision that should be taken lightly. To be respectful to a life form, means striving to give that life form the best chance in life. And no couple should procreate unless they can be damn sure that they are ready to have a child, and to give it the best chance in life.

    This means, even if condoms are used - consider the consequences of the very tiny possibility that the condom could split, and pregnancy could ensue. Consider that with any kind of intercourse, there is a chance that a human life could be created, and that, to be moral, deserves the best kind of upbringing possible, to give it a fighting chance of having a good chance in life.

    I'm convinced that the ultimate environment to conceive and rear a child is with a strong, feminine, biological mother, and a strong, masculine, biological father. With this philosophy comes the harsh but rational judgment that there are certain methods of conception and styles of upbringing that do NOT give a child a fighting chance of a good life, and are disrespectful of the child's life.

    This may be controversial, but I hope you will think about this. Humans are wired to procreate - as is every life form. This can't be disputed. So for those that would like children, but for whatever reason, cannot conceive, and so choose to adopt/clone/etc - you must consider the life form that will be created at the end of it; it must not be created lightly. What I'm trying to say is that babies that are conceived via cloning, sperm-doning (anonymous or not), etc, or children that are adopted and raised by gay couples are not giving a child the best chance in life. Children are extremely impressionable, and they will be moulded into adults by the slightest of behaviours.

    To conceive and raise a child in any way other than the optimum way - with a strong, feminine, biological mother, and a strong, masculine, biological father - is stacking the odds against it. As I said, this is controversial to say, and I must say that I have no business empathising with anyone unable to conceive a child - I can only sympathise.

    Respect,

    Scotty

  20. Hi, Randy,

    More excellent material to ponder upon.....good stuff!

    As for me, I wonder why "safe sex" is almost NEVER part of the eternal abortion debate. Let's face it, a woman can demand that her man use a condom, or she can take precations herself if she doesn't want to become pregnant. Contraceptives are so easy to acquire, there is really no excuse.

    Yes, there are some cases of rape or incest, but that is a much larger question, and, of course, neither rape or incest can ever be justified.

    That said, if a woman wants to have "control over her own body," and doesn't want to become pregnant, she must ask a man to use protection. THAT is exerting her right over her own body.

    We have come to an illogical point in the discussion of abortion in this country to say that a woman's "right to choose," is the right to kill her baby.

    I realize the above sounds extreme, but let's face it, no one really KNOWS when the "mass of cells" becomes a human being. So shouldn't Life be respected, especially when it is so easy to prevent pregnancy in the first place?

    Just as an aside, if some farmer in Iowa planted his corn crop, and someone came along a week later and dug up a couple of rows of soil then told the farmer, no harm done, I didn't dig up any CORN, just a few masses of cells, I don't think that argument would get very far. (Watch the buckshot start flying!)

    One person mentioned adoption as a possible alternative to abortion. I couldn't agree more.

    Incidentally my perspective comes not from ANY religious belief system, since I don't subscribe to ANY religion, but simply a philosophy of honoring life.

  21. RIGHT ON RANDY with this one. I'm an ex fundamentalist Christian and an ex ProLife advocate. Believe me when I say, mate I have had my fair share of arguments on abortion.

    I personally don't think abortion is always the best option. However we can't force a woman to both A) Be pregnant and B) Force an abortion.

    Being an ex Pro life advocate I am aware and fully understand their arguments for abortion to be illegal. But if it's illegal what could this bring? Botched backyard jobs, higher increase infection, higher crime rate etc.

    I agree with Obama's stance on abortion. The best way to keep it down is make it legal and teach people to make responsible choices in life.

    The reality is, abortion is never going to cease. When my daughter grows to be a woman and is faced with the unfortunate option for abortion then (unlike religious fundamentalists) will always support her decision and be there for her every step of the way and make sure she knows that she can always count on me for love and support.

    Randy, I'm not sure if you'll read my comment but I just want to say I love reading your rants mate. I just started doing MLM (my second time) and this time is gonna be better! All the best.

  22. I agree and want to add that when you have an accident and didnt wear a helmet or seatbelt, the people trying to rescue you (medics/fire guards) suffer more (mentally and emotionally), because the chance your injury will be worse is large.

  23. It's all subjective and to ask an open ended question like that seems to go nowhere. Some agree, some don't. The problem is that most have already replied completely out of the prosperity context letting emotion rule their answer. So Randy, why even ask the question when you already know the outcome. I feel that I have wasted 2 minutes by even writing this reply.

  24. You can't protect people from their own stupidity. Nor should anyone try. So, if someone wants to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, go for it. Just don't expect my tax dollars to pay for your brain injury rehab bill.

  25. In my point of view, the only difference about a fetus and us, is time and nutrition.
    If you let a fetus grow, he you be a human beeing, so there is life on it.
    The woman´s will cannot overcome the fetus will to live.
    Oh, by the way, sorry for my terrible english.

    Tiago C. Simões - from Brazil

  26. Randy,

    Thanks for another case in How to Become a Critical Thinker. I agree with you. I am not in
    favor of abortion, but I do think it would be terrible to force a woman to keep a fetus she doesn't want.

    I also don't understand how we are against killing a fetus, but in the name of God it is OK to kill someone in church or blow up the abortion clinic where the people work and are killed.

    What is so important about these discussions is not the "smelliness" of these topics, but how we think. If I can think on my own and not just because I want to fit in with the "Republicrats" than eventually I will own my own life. Thanks for you devotion to this.
    Jim Story.

    PS> Call me when you are back in town and I will help you carry the raised vanity up to your condo. I am 6'2" and hate that stretch to the sink.LOL

  27. Thanks all the participants for your bold arguments. Personally I believe that once a sperm meets the egg and a zygote if formed, life joins together and continues the journey of prosperity (growth). Its the live sperm that meets the live egg. The union of two creates a more complex life system that eventually leads into me and you. Terminating the existence of this new creature is terminating the existence of me and you. Yes we have choices, we can do whatever we want at will! but imagine if any of the parties that brought you into this existence decided to do away with you at such a time when you had no choice or freedom to counter the decision, would you be here to make such arguments? Its the same context the fetus feels, but at the mercy of its bearer. Unless its done to save the life of its bearer, I don't support it. Alfred-Uganda.

  28. I agree with u....
    Itz individual choice whether to RISE or FALL in life, where I believe GOD give only one human life make it or break it, its in your hand..........

  29. What do I think?

    I think I love you! No - I know I do.

    I love your mind - and I love your ability to go beyond your beliefs, and see that they don't serve others and contrict their rights.

    I love that you challenge and cause people to think.

    I love you audacious consistency in serving the world and waking people up to all of how they create themselves.

    THANK YOU Mr Gage.

    Joy to you....

  30. this is very bad to make abortion, because if you don't wanna have a baby, the question is why you had a sex without a condom? Moreover i think you're killing your child, which God gives you, I'm completely against for it.

  31. Abortion, hard call. For me no. For others? I have to say it's their choice within a certain period of time, before the embryo is developed into a fetus? It should only be done if it can be done in a humane way.

    Which would you rather be, an embryo that is warm and safe and killed without much awareness of what's going on, or an animal that has much more development and lives it's life in nasty conditions without any respect and then is killed by someone that doesn't care.

    Not saying we shouldn't eat meat, or that abortions shouldn't be well thought out, just that we should make sure that we treat life with respect while it's here even if we intend to kill it. I know that sounds crazy but if you really think about it it's not.

  32. ok, u can delete that, it sounds crude, not my intentions, intentions for people to think about how we treat life and not just overlook some things because it's social acceptable to overlook them.

  33. It may sound very crazy but WHO decided that we really have a choice?Someone did and therefore we have it...And if we hadn´t,we would die like in the old days when women did it by themselfes.To me, it is the most difficult question ever come to this earth.It somehow breaks the laws of everything...but there are a lot of other things who does too, not just that seriously.Well, well. I guess I am at your opinion, but still I am at the childrens one...COMPLICATED!

  34. When it comes to abortion I have no right to tell someone else what to do with their bodies. Like Randy I have done some critical thinking on this in the past. However I am all for sex education in schools and all other ways to reduce unwanted pregnancies.

    I have not though too much about cloning but I have seen all of the movies 🙂

  35. Good article Randy! I feel the same way on many of your issues. I used to be for abortion and now I am against it. I made that decision when I saw my son being born. Who am I or any government to play GOD.

  36. It seems that the philosophy here is the belief in individual freedom. We are free to do as we wish as long as it does not affect anyone's rights. Abortion has always been a touchy issue. I thought about it for a while and my own individual thinking is that the fetus is not a person with rights until they are born. You must also argue that it is the woman's duty not to smoke, drink, or do drugs while she is pregnant so the baby will turn out without the risk of any defects. She is also responsible to eat properly to give the fetus adequate nutrition. The fetus has a right to be protected so it will be born without any unecessary risk of deformity or any other disadvantage. I still think the decision to have the child born or not is still the individual choice of the woman and nobody else's choice. That life is her responsibility until it is an adult and if she chooses not to have this, then it is her choice and her choice alone. If she chooses to have the baby, then she must look after the fetus right after inception. If she chooses an abortion, then let her, it is no one else's business or choice but hers.

  37. If it comes down to either me or the government playing God - I want to play God, I never want that choice given to the Government "on my behalf"

  38. The current (US) law which allows abortion doesn't mean that a woman who doesn't want an abortion has to have one. It doesn't force anyone to do anything they don't want to and in my belief that is a GREAT thing.

    As it stands, a woman has freedom of choice.

    It is up to the individual to decide on the exact moment a life is created and it then becomes their decision whether or not the ending of the birthing process is "murder" or not. You choose, you act and you let others decide for themselves, it is no concern of yours how someone else perceives the situation.

  39. It's interesting how many men feel strongly about abortion. Until they have a baby in their body they really have no idea what it means for a woman. I can only imagine how horrendous that must be if you have a baby that for whatever reason you don't want. Personally I'm pleased women are having more of a say in what happens to them after thousands of years of being controlled by men's laws.

    p.s sounds nuts about your counter Randy!

  40. This is a tough one.

    Like many others I feel different about abortion now than I did before my children were born. But, whatever I feel, I know I don't have the right to dictate what others can or can't do with their bodies/lives, and I don't believe Governments or anyone else should either. Accidents can happen, and no one has the right to force someone to carry and give birth to a baby they don't really want. Individuals have to be responsible for the choices they make, and they have to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

  41. Randy,

    I had the good fortune to read Atlas Shrugged for the first time at 17 and The Virtue of Selfishness a couple of years later. Over the last 35 years I have proven to myself that the philosophy works for both life and business. Clearly your success, lifestyle and bank account tells me you have figured out some things I haven’t!

    In trying to understand I am still puzzling over the discrimination should be legalized idea and the subsequent posts trying to work through this puzzle I come up with an idea that seems contradictory. While an important part of having a prosperity consciousness is to believe it’s my right to discriminate and victimless crimes should not be illegal it is more important to follow the law. If the law contradicts those beliefs then follow the law – while maintaining the beliefs??? If this is indeed what you are saying it twists my brain around in so many ways.

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  • 48 comments on “Abortion, Cloning and Prosperity”

    1. For the abortion argument I am personally against it. As soon as sperm and egg meet, it's Life, and I feel that it's taking life.

      That being said, I can't tell a woman what to do with their body, and I don't feel that the law should either. Besides, their conscience, karma, or whatever you want to call it, deals with that. If in their heart they feel it's OK to have an abortion, then their conscience will be cleared. If they feel that it's wrong, they carry it with them for the rest of their life, and I've known women who it absolutely destroyed. You can't escape your conscience. It reaches places where Jonny Law can't.

    2. It seems like everyone has the right to life... I think that it would be better to put a baby up for adoption than abort it. I know that the mothers feel better about it and it just make's more sense.

      I'm not really sure how I feel about it but i'm leaning towards the life side... I have heard it so many times but each of us was chosen out of 1 million sperm... obviously we are special and obviously we have a purpose. To take that purpose away sure couldn't be my job.

      Thanks for the post Randy...

      David

    3. Totally with you on this Randy. Every woman should have a say on her body and what she chooses to do with it. Now, there is a personal responsibility issue her, if a woman continues to have the same behavior and continues to get abortions, here does the buck stop. About legalizing drugs, I think we would stop the war on them and we would really start to educate and create new ways to see that the problem is not the drugs, rather what we do not heal of ourselves!

    4. Excellent post, Randy!

      We are still, as a society and as a planet, deep into the victim mentality and scared of the cruel world out there so we feel a need to control everything. Naturally, this comes around and bites us in the ass:)

      I think there needs to be a shift in consciousness, where people understand that they are the creators of their experience and life. Only then the need to control others will disappear.

      Someone who thinks the world is a nasty place and feels powerless will never understand the logic and common sense of a this type of view of the world, prosperity or anything else.

      Interestingly enough, I talked to a lady from Boston the other day and told her that the U.S. constitution was written to tell the government what it can't do to the people, not as a set of rules and regulations for the people to follow. It told the government that "every man was created equal", just so there wouldn't be any misunderstanding later:)

      Have a great day,

      Josip

    5. "Most of you understand the logic, although a few readers couldn’t seem to overcome their personal feelings and think logically". Ok Randy, I have to call you on this statement. Your blog is all about critical thinking and sometimes spirited debate. I love reading your stuff and agree with most of your philosophy. This statement though makes the assumption that if we don't agree with you we aren't thinking logically.
      You bring up some great subjects that obviously don't have a black and white standard answer.
      RJ

    6. As long as you're not hurting someone else go ahead and create the life you want. If that includes drug use, having an abortion or prostitution then go right ahead. The fact that I am not a drug user, I am against abortion and don't feel the need to prostitute myself has no bearing on how you choose to live your life.

      Carol

    7. Randy,

      Great post. I agree with what you said, and I understand that many people have problems accepting "contraty" ideas to be implemented.

      Somehow, I think every one of us has a "mind police virus" inside, that we must work in order to overrule it, and let people make their own choices, not judging them from our point of view.

      Keep these great thoughts flowing.

      Greetings from Chile!
      Gus

    8. After many years; I'm 67 now; I have to agree with Randy on all points. For Christians it takes no more than actually reading what Jesus taught..thoroughly and coming to an understanding. At no time did he say to go forth and play God in the lives of others to the extent of pushing for local and national laws to be changed that would force others to live according to my personal religious based beliefs. In fact, he did say when in any place to respect their laws.

      He said to teach others what he taught. And if one did this in the same manner he did, it sets an example, plus he only spoke to and with those who were willing to hear what he had to say.

      Our law books today are crammed full of laws demanded by enough groups of people to pass into law...that have nothing to do with preserving personal liberties. Even the non religious based ones are mostly to force others to live under some people's personal beliefs.

      Like Randy also, yes, I fully appreciate that we have laws that are designed to deal with criminal acts. We need those. And the whole issue, to me...today, comes down to simply ALL THINGS IN MODERATION.

      We seem to have become a world ruled by excessive controls over every aspect of other people's lifestyles, choices and even what others should be taught to think. The Texas textbook changes come to mind... 🙂

      It's time for change...for sure,

      Thanks again Randy for always making all of us think!

      DJ

    9. Randy, regarding abortion it all comes down to (I believe) when we as a collective society determine that actual life has taken hold. Surely, life BEGINS at the time that the egg has been fertilized. However, a good portion of society doesn't hold that the embryo is a person yet. That takes place at some ambiguous time during pregnancy. On the other end of the spectrum, if a woman wanted to have an abortion at eight months into her pregnancy...the vast majority of society would condemn that act as actual murder. Society accepts that the unborn child is a true LIFE at that time. Most likely that's the case because the unborn baby would be almost completely viable outside the womb. So, the abortion issue (in terms of the rights of the mother and the rights of the unborn child) simply come down to timing. Our beliefs determine where in that timing a life has become a life rather than just being potential life. And from whatever point we believe that to be, our beliefs on abortion can be logical and consistent.

    10. This comment articulates my position exactly. Once we collectively agree (which will probably never happen) when a fetus becomes a person with the right to life, who then will be the enforcer of that right against the woman that decides to kill that person?

      The second part of this argument should be if the federal government, as dictated by the supreme court, has the right to enforce a policy either way that it has absolutely no constitutional authority enforcing.

    11. Prosperity consciousness is about an abundant universerse that has more than enough resources. When we, meaning society focus on any kind of limiting behavior, then we have limited some of the flow of abundance.

      We need laws because we have a large number of people in this country and to believe that everyone will behave honorably and with integrity for the highest good of all is foolishness at this point in our evolution.

      In fact, we need more government right now because the insurance companies and the hedgefund brokers have shown us that they are not going to act ethically without changes and stiffer regs.

      As to a women's right to choose, this is not about the life of the unborn, although that statement is used to moblize people. It's about taking women's rights away, limiting their independence, and once again making them be the only one responsible for sexual choices. It sucks.

      If marijuana was legalized, and needles and condoms were free, it would improve things alot. But the religious right cannot seem to understand that. I am almost rabid about any kind of fundementalism as it always ends up in repression, and women are usually the most repressed by it.

      We need to legalize prostitution, give away free needles and condoms so we can reduce the spread of HIV. Until men, mostly men, I realize that there is gay prostitution, and that there are male escort services. But I think it's mostly men who patronize strip joints, massage parlors, and pick-up prostitutes, or hire call girls. I have not seen their behavior, as a group change all that much in my lifetime, so it's better to legalize it, and give the health department a better chance of regulating the risks. Besides if it's legal, women can work for themselves.

      So that's my take on it. What's really missing here, is that we don't know how to love and appreciate each other enough, so that everyone feels whole, and doesn't really need any of the above.

      In the meantime, we need laws, until the day comes where people get it about how to treat other people and how to listen.

      Thanks for the platform, I do appreciate you.

      patbutterfly

    12. Randy,

      Great, thought-provoking post as usual. First some facts - then my logic derived from the facts:

      I do a lot of safety consulting with pediatric surgical teams.
      Surgeons can do remarkable surgical procedures on unborn children in the womb - to correct birth defects and repair other physical problems. When they do these procedures they give both the mother and the fetus anesthetic because the fetus feels pain. They treat the baby as if it were another patient. In one case where the surgeon cut into the womb the unborn baby grasped his hand. I saw the picture of this.

      In many states, you can be prosecuted for two murders if you kill a pregnant woman.

      In many states you can prosecuted for damaging your baby in the womb due to your drug use or alcholism.

      You have a right to control your body until that action infringes on another's rights. (I can make my body "high" with drugs until it causes me to hurt someone else or steal their property.)

      So the key point in a logical approach to abortion is "When does the fetus become a 'person' with all the rights of a human being?"
      I do not know the answer, but science is dangerously close to being able to pinpoint it. Once we are close to knowing, let's err on the side of caution, determine a definitive cutoff point, and stop the killing of unborn, but fully vested human beings.

      Regarding your point about forcing someone to carry a baby to term that they don't want...

      You have the right to drink but if you drive drunk and kill someone you might have to spend 9 months in jail.

      You have the right to do drugs, but if ruin your life you might have to spend nine months in rehab.

      You have the right to have sex, but if you conceive and the baby reaches personhood, you might have to carry it to term.

      This, to me, seems a congruent approach to abortion.

      Thanks Randy, for motivating me to analyze my thoughts and put them into words.

      Steve

    13. I have been pondering this question for quite some time of when life really starts. It seems to me that when the egg and sperm meet, it is strictly biology. It is the miracle of source energy that begins the reaction to cell division and development that introduces what we know as 'life'. Without the energy from source, no changes occur. The unborn fetus begins development as a person in the womb, due to whatever the mother is exposed to (or subjects herself to). For a woman to choose an abortion (and it is her choice) is for her to choose what is best for herself and her unborn child, given any circumstances. I do believe that she needs to be counseled (without bias) as to the consequences of each choice, to make the best decision possible.

      I am not a supporter of abortion, but I cannot deny a woman's right to choose either, as it is not my place, or the government to impose that control over her.

      Once control issues start, lack mentality breeds. I will fight for the choice of abundancy and prosperity as free will and the right to choose is what keeps us free and moving forward as a race.

    14. "I wear a seatbelt when I drive and a helmet when I ride motorcycles because that’s the smart thing to do. But I don’t want the government telling me I have to. It’s not their business."

      Randy, I too use seatbelts and a helmet and hate the government telling me what to do, so I have to agree with you. However when those who don't take pro active steps to protect themselves get injured and paralyzed they expect society (the government) to pay their bills and take care of them for the rest of their life.....and we do.

      It seems to me that to be completely congruent that must stop. Until people realize that yes, they have the right to live life their own way, but, and it's the big but, they have to also accept responsibility for the consequences of their actions, it is kind of the governments business. Isn't it?.

    15. There is no "right" and "wrong" in this field. The whole things depends on the agreement of people (the majority) on what to do!
      But again, about the laws, I thing forcing people to have helmet makes the society safer and prevents wasting resources ... don't you think so?

    16. Forcing people to be safer is taking away their freedom to be unsafe. Government is there to protect us from others or more specifically to protect our right to freedom from others, not to protect us from ourselves.

    17. These are hard questions and I VALUE our freedom to debate them. Thank you for facilitation the discussions. I treasure the opinions expressed - and the ability to do so EVEN MORE! It makes me sad as I see more and more of our individual freedoms destroyed, that one day we might speak of the freedoms we "used to" enjoy - such as forums like this. Cheers - SoCal

    18. I'm pro abortion for the same reasons as you Randy. As for the right of the child, I think we're making the assumption that a fertilised egg has an opinion. If you believe in spirit, who knows at what point in time a spirit attaches itself to a fertilised egg. What if it's closer to the time of birth? If that's the case, then it's just a bunch of cells and we're not impinging on its rights anyway. It's quite likely that we will never know the answer to this question during our lifetimes.

    19. As I always say: morality is simple, really: humans are entitled to one thing only, and that’s the freedom to be left alone to do what they want, as long as they respect the same right in others. Anything that violates this one and only human entitlement is immoral.

      Meaning, if people want to indulge abortion, cloning, gay-couple adoption, sperm-doning, etc, that's their life. I will never support these things, as I believe them to be immoral, as they are disrespectful of the humans whose lives will ultimately be produced/destroyed/raised.

      When it comes to abortion, I haven't made up my mind if and when it is immoral or not. It IS immoral to interfere with someone's life if they choose this path - that's their business, but as I said, regarding the 'life' of the fetus, I'm not sure where to draw the line - if at all.

      But when it comes to actual, living, breathing lives, I'm convinced that the conception, birth, and life of a human is not a decision that should be taken lightly. To be respectful to a life form, means striving to give that life form the best chance in life. And no couple should procreate unless they can be damn sure that they are ready to have a child, and to give it the best chance in life.

      This means, even if condoms are used - consider the consequences of the very tiny possibility that the condom could split, and pregnancy could ensue. Consider that with any kind of intercourse, there is a chance that a human life could be created, and that, to be moral, deserves the best kind of upbringing possible, to give it a fighting chance of having a good chance in life.

      I'm convinced that the ultimate environment to conceive and rear a child is with a strong, feminine, biological mother, and a strong, masculine, biological father. With this philosophy comes the harsh but rational judgment that there are certain methods of conception and styles of upbringing that do NOT give a child a fighting chance of a good life, and are disrespectful of the child's life.

      This may be controversial, but I hope you will think about this. Humans are wired to procreate - as is every life form. This can't be disputed. So for those that would like children, but for whatever reason, cannot conceive, and so choose to adopt/clone/etc - you must consider the life form that will be created at the end of it; it must not be created lightly. What I'm trying to say is that babies that are conceived via cloning, sperm-doning (anonymous or not), etc, or children that are adopted and raised by gay couples are not giving a child the best chance in life. Children are extremely impressionable, and they will be moulded into adults by the slightest of behaviours.

      To conceive and raise a child in any way other than the optimum way - with a strong, feminine, biological mother, and a strong, masculine, biological father - is stacking the odds against it. As I said, this is controversial to say, and I must say that I have no business empathising with anyone unable to conceive a child - I can only sympathise.

      Respect,

      Scotty

    20. Hi, Randy,

      More excellent material to ponder upon.....good stuff!

      As for me, I wonder why "safe sex" is almost NEVER part of the eternal abortion debate. Let's face it, a woman can demand that her man use a condom, or she can take precations herself if she doesn't want to become pregnant. Contraceptives are so easy to acquire, there is really no excuse.

      Yes, there are some cases of rape or incest, but that is a much larger question, and, of course, neither rape or incest can ever be justified.

      That said, if a woman wants to have "control over her own body," and doesn't want to become pregnant, she must ask a man to use protection. THAT is exerting her right over her own body.

      We have come to an illogical point in the discussion of abortion in this country to say that a woman's "right to choose," is the right to kill her baby.

      I realize the above sounds extreme, but let's face it, no one really KNOWS when the "mass of cells" becomes a human being. So shouldn't Life be respected, especially when it is so easy to prevent pregnancy in the first place?

      Just as an aside, if some farmer in Iowa planted his corn crop, and someone came along a week later and dug up a couple of rows of soil then told the farmer, no harm done, I didn't dig up any CORN, just a few masses of cells, I don't think that argument would get very far. (Watch the buckshot start flying!)

      One person mentioned adoption as a possible alternative to abortion. I couldn't agree more.

      Incidentally my perspective comes not from ANY religious belief system, since I don't subscribe to ANY religion, but simply a philosophy of honoring life.

    21. RIGHT ON RANDY with this one. I'm an ex fundamentalist Christian and an ex ProLife advocate. Believe me when I say, mate I have had my fair share of arguments on abortion.

      I personally don't think abortion is always the best option. However we can't force a woman to both A) Be pregnant and B) Force an abortion.

      Being an ex Pro life advocate I am aware and fully understand their arguments for abortion to be illegal. But if it's illegal what could this bring? Botched backyard jobs, higher increase infection, higher crime rate etc.

      I agree with Obama's stance on abortion. The best way to keep it down is make it legal and teach people to make responsible choices in life.

      The reality is, abortion is never going to cease. When my daughter grows to be a woman and is faced with the unfortunate option for abortion then (unlike religious fundamentalists) will always support her decision and be there for her every step of the way and make sure she knows that she can always count on me for love and support.

      Randy, I'm not sure if you'll read my comment but I just want to say I love reading your rants mate. I just started doing MLM (my second time) and this time is gonna be better! All the best.

    22. I agree and want to add that when you have an accident and didnt wear a helmet or seatbelt, the people trying to rescue you (medics/fire guards) suffer more (mentally and emotionally), because the chance your injury will be worse is large.

    23. It's all subjective and to ask an open ended question like that seems to go nowhere. Some agree, some don't. The problem is that most have already replied completely out of the prosperity context letting emotion rule their answer. So Randy, why even ask the question when you already know the outcome. I feel that I have wasted 2 minutes by even writing this reply.

    24. You can't protect people from their own stupidity. Nor should anyone try. So, if someone wants to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, go for it. Just don't expect my tax dollars to pay for your brain injury rehab bill.

    25. In my point of view, the only difference about a fetus and us, is time and nutrition.
      If you let a fetus grow, he you be a human beeing, so there is life on it.
      The woman´s will cannot overcome the fetus will to live.
      Oh, by the way, sorry for my terrible english.

      Tiago C. Simões - from Brazil

    26. Randy,

      Thanks for another case in How to Become a Critical Thinker. I agree with you. I am not in
      favor of abortion, but I do think it would be terrible to force a woman to keep a fetus she doesn't want.

      I also don't understand how we are against killing a fetus, but in the name of God it is OK to kill someone in church or blow up the abortion clinic where the people work and are killed.

      What is so important about these discussions is not the "smelliness" of these topics, but how we think. If I can think on my own and not just because I want to fit in with the "Republicrats" than eventually I will own my own life. Thanks for you devotion to this.
      Jim Story.

      PS> Call me when you are back in town and I will help you carry the raised vanity up to your condo. I am 6'2" and hate that stretch to the sink.LOL

    27. Thanks all the participants for your bold arguments. Personally I believe that once a sperm meets the egg and a zygote if formed, life joins together and continues the journey of prosperity (growth). Its the live sperm that meets the live egg. The union of two creates a more complex life system that eventually leads into me and you. Terminating the existence of this new creature is terminating the existence of me and you. Yes we have choices, we can do whatever we want at will! but imagine if any of the parties that brought you into this existence decided to do away with you at such a time when you had no choice or freedom to counter the decision, would you be here to make such arguments? Its the same context the fetus feels, but at the mercy of its bearer. Unless its done to save the life of its bearer, I don't support it. Alfred-Uganda.

    28. I agree with u....
      Itz individual choice whether to RISE or FALL in life, where I believe GOD give only one human life make it or break it, its in your hand..........

    29. What do I think?

      I think I love you! No - I know I do.

      I love your mind - and I love your ability to go beyond your beliefs, and see that they don't serve others and contrict their rights.

      I love that you challenge and cause people to think.

      I love you audacious consistency in serving the world and waking people up to all of how they create themselves.

      THANK YOU Mr Gage.

      Joy to you....

    30. this is very bad to make abortion, because if you don't wanna have a baby, the question is why you had a sex without a condom? Moreover i think you're killing your child, which God gives you, I'm completely against for it.

    31. Abortion, hard call. For me no. For others? I have to say it's their choice within a certain period of time, before the embryo is developed into a fetus? It should only be done if it can be done in a humane way.

      Which would you rather be, an embryo that is warm and safe and killed without much awareness of what's going on, or an animal that has much more development and lives it's life in nasty conditions without any respect and then is killed by someone that doesn't care.

      Not saying we shouldn't eat meat, or that abortions shouldn't be well thought out, just that we should make sure that we treat life with respect while it's here even if we intend to kill it. I know that sounds crazy but if you really think about it it's not.

    32. ok, u can delete that, it sounds crude, not my intentions, intentions for people to think about how we treat life and not just overlook some things because it's social acceptable to overlook them.

    33. It may sound very crazy but WHO decided that we really have a choice?Someone did and therefore we have it...And if we hadn´t,we would die like in the old days when women did it by themselfes.To me, it is the most difficult question ever come to this earth.It somehow breaks the laws of everything...but there are a lot of other things who does too, not just that seriously.Well, well. I guess I am at your opinion, but still I am at the childrens one...COMPLICATED!

    34. When it comes to abortion I have no right to tell someone else what to do with their bodies. Like Randy I have done some critical thinking on this in the past. However I am all for sex education in schools and all other ways to reduce unwanted pregnancies.

      I have not though too much about cloning but I have seen all of the movies 🙂

    35. Good article Randy! I feel the same way on many of your issues. I used to be for abortion and now I am against it. I made that decision when I saw my son being born. Who am I or any government to play GOD.

    36. It seems that the philosophy here is the belief in individual freedom. We are free to do as we wish as long as it does not affect anyone's rights. Abortion has always been a touchy issue. I thought about it for a while and my own individual thinking is that the fetus is not a person with rights until they are born. You must also argue that it is the woman's duty not to smoke, drink, or do drugs while she is pregnant so the baby will turn out without the risk of any defects. She is also responsible to eat properly to give the fetus adequate nutrition. The fetus has a right to be protected so it will be born without any unecessary risk of deformity or any other disadvantage. I still think the decision to have the child born or not is still the individual choice of the woman and nobody else's choice. That life is her responsibility until it is an adult and if she chooses not to have this, then it is her choice and her choice alone. If she chooses to have the baby, then she must look after the fetus right after inception. If she chooses an abortion, then let her, it is no one else's business or choice but hers.

    37. If it comes down to either me or the government playing God - I want to play God, I never want that choice given to the Government "on my behalf"

    38. The current (US) law which allows abortion doesn't mean that a woman who doesn't want an abortion has to have one. It doesn't force anyone to do anything they don't want to and in my belief that is a GREAT thing.

      As it stands, a woman has freedom of choice.

      It is up to the individual to decide on the exact moment a life is created and it then becomes their decision whether or not the ending of the birthing process is "murder" or not. You choose, you act and you let others decide for themselves, it is no concern of yours how someone else perceives the situation.

    39. It's interesting how many men feel strongly about abortion. Until they have a baby in their body they really have no idea what it means for a woman. I can only imagine how horrendous that must be if you have a baby that for whatever reason you don't want. Personally I'm pleased women are having more of a say in what happens to them after thousands of years of being controlled by men's laws.

      p.s sounds nuts about your counter Randy!

    40. This is a tough one.

      Like many others I feel different about abortion now than I did before my children were born. But, whatever I feel, I know I don't have the right to dictate what others can or can't do with their bodies/lives, and I don't believe Governments or anyone else should either. Accidents can happen, and no one has the right to force someone to carry and give birth to a baby they don't really want. Individuals have to be responsible for the choices they make, and they have to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

    41. Randy,

      I had the good fortune to read Atlas Shrugged for the first time at 17 and The Virtue of Selfishness a couple of years later. Over the last 35 years I have proven to myself that the philosophy works for both life and business. Clearly your success, lifestyle and bank account tells me you have figured out some things I haven’t!

      In trying to understand I am still puzzling over the discrimination should be legalized idea and the subsequent posts trying to work through this puzzle I come up with an idea that seems contradictory. While an important part of having a prosperity consciousness is to believe it’s my right to discriminate and victimless crimes should not be illegal it is more important to follow the law. If the law contradicts those beliefs then follow the law – while maintaining the beliefs??? If this is indeed what you are saying it twists my brain around in so many ways.

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